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General Discussionsperspective - battle scene

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PietFrancke
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perspective - battle scene

Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:59 pm

in trying to add a buzzard, I am trying to figure out proper vanishing points and then being able to properly warp the buzzard so it looks right.

So... what I know... (or think I know). The eye of the viewer is always at the horizon. So, my figure depicts the viewer (assuming I picked a good horizon).

My questions are: For this scene, what is (are) the appropriate vanishing point location(s)? For a dramatic scene, how many vanishing points would be good for a novice like myself. I want to be able to plop in additional figures, but "pre-warp" them into perspective before I drop them into place. Am I thinking about this all right?
Perspective-1.jpg

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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 pm

so... should I be doing two point like this? And pretend the buzzard is a box and warp it accordingly?
perspective-2.jpg

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Post by Psjunkie » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:51 pm

I could be all wet here as I know nothing about this but seems to me the start of the vanishing point (the large squares) should be the viewer's eyes rather than up in the middle of the scene Piet.....you have read about it so fill us in.

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Post by minniev » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:06 pm

Not entirely sure what you are saying, but by my interpretation - Depends on what you want for perspective. The photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point. Paintings sometimes combine perspectives to give us more "story" in the frame, sort of the way movies do but compressed into one image. Twisting the buzzard like a dimensional box or kite seems like it would work. Since you work with tiny figures and have a stageset, why not mold a dimensional fake buzzard out of clay or something else pliable and suspend him, not to use as an actual figure in the scene but to photograph and then manipulate to get information about shadows and shape?
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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PietFrancke
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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:08 pm

Psjunkie wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:51 pm
I could be all wet here as I know nothing about this but seems to me the start of the vanishing point (the large squares) should be the viewer's eyes rather than up in the middle of the scene Piet.....you have read about it so fill us in.
It is (I think...). See green box on viewer's eyes. So... everything I read is that the viewer's eyes is at the horizon. I Could move the horizon up a bit (but I like the idea of a down low POV, like your beach shots) - we are laying on the ground looking up kind of thing..

I am so confused I could scream.. I am thinking there are a million perspectives. One, two, three points... But WHERE and HOW the frig do you decide where to put the points??? My google searching is turning fruitless and frustrating. I don't know much more about this than you do Frank - If Any..

perspective3.jpg

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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:11 pm

minniev wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:06 pm
Not entirely sure what you are saying, but by my interpretation - Depends on what you want for perspective. The photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point. Paintings sometimes combine perspectives to give us more "story" in the frame, sort of the way movies do but compressed into one image. Twisting the buzzard like a dimensional box or kite seems like it would work. Since you work with tiny figures and have a stageset, why not mold a dimensional fake buzzard out of clay or something else pliable and suspend him, not to use as an actual figure in the scene but to photograph and then manipulate to get information about shadows and shape?
help me understand... "the photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point"... Does this mean that the center of the the image that is captures is the vanishing point in a photo?

Edit -- I have read countless things about perspective, but there must be a BIG principle that I am just not understanding... It is like I choose where to have it and mash everything into that?

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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:24 pm

Psjunkie wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:51 pm
I could be all wet here as I know nothing about this but seems to me the start of the vanishing point (the large squares) should be the viewer's eyes rather than up in the middle of the scene Piet.....you have read about it so fill us in.
bigger square in viewer's eyes... That is to say if we drew a corner of a building right where the viewer is, this is what we would see... (I think)
perspective4.jpg

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Post by minniev » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:36 pm

PietFrancke wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:11 pm
minniev wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:06 pm
Not entirely sure what you are saying, but by my interpretation - Depends on what you want for perspective. The photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point. Paintings sometimes combine perspectives to give us more "story" in the frame, sort of the way movies do but compressed into one image. Twisting the buzzard like a dimensional box or kite seems like it would work. Since you work with tiny figures and have a stageset, why not mold a dimensional fake buzzard out of clay or something else pliable and suspend him, not to use as an actual figure in the scene but to photograph and then manipulate to get information about shadows and shape?
help me understand... "the photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point"... Does this mean that the center of the the image that is captures is the vanishing point in a photo?

Edit -- I have read countless things about perspective, but there must be a BIG principle that I am just not understanding... It is like I choose where to have it and mash everything into that?
You need Duck to emerge from his lair to get "real" answers. To my way of thinking, which is inexpert at best, physical perspective is determined from where the viewer of the scene stands. The vanishing point, to put it in simple Mississippi terms, is where the cotton rows meet in the distance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_point

Of course it's more complicated than that, involving how objects reveal dimension differently as they recede from the viewer. For a "true" perspective, one like what you might photograph, there are certain fundamentals that help make the scene convincing. Artistic license has been exercised though, since art began, so that some art seems to have multiple perspectives and doesn't really conform to the laws of physics or vision but still works. This series might be of interest? https://www.nma.art/videolessons/perspe ... tiple-vps/
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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PietFrancke
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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm

minniev wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:36 pm
PietFrancke wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:11 pm
minniev wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:06 pm
Not entirely sure what you are saying, but by my interpretation - Depends on what you want for perspective. The photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point. Paintings sometimes combine perspectives to give us more "story" in the frame, sort of the way movies do but compressed into one image. Twisting the buzzard like a dimensional box or kite seems like it would work. Since you work with tiny figures and have a stageset, why not mold a dimensional fake buzzard out of clay or something else pliable and suspend him, not to use as an actual figure in the scene but to photograph and then manipulate to get information about shadows and shape?
help me understand... "the photographic perspective is from one spot to one vanishing point"... Does this mean that the center of the the image that is captures is the vanishing point in a photo?

Edit -- I have read countless things about perspective, but there must be a BIG principle that I am just not understanding... It is like I choose where to have it and mash everything into that?
You need Duck to emerge from his lair to get "real" answers. To my way of thinking, which is inexpert at best, physical perspective is determined from where the viewer of the scene stands. The vanishing point, to put it in simple Mississippi terms, is where the cotton rows meet in the distance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_point

Of course it's more complicated than that, involving how objects reveal dimension differently as they recede from the viewer. For a "true" perspective, one like what you might photograph, there are certain fundamentals that help make the scene convincing. Artistic license has been exercised though, since art began, so that some art seems to have multiple perspectives and doesn't really conform to the laws of physics or vision but still works. This series might be of interest? https://www.nma.art/videolessons/perspe ... tiple-vps/
thank you for those links!

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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:30 pm

so... (I hate paths and strokes - confusing). I moved the horizon up a little, it can perhaps go up even higher if we wish.
perspective5.jpg
now... here is my question... if I have a rectangular shape (the buzzard on the horizontal) To place the buzzard with proper perspective into where I put it, would I warp (translate perspective) it into the shape indicated by the yellow lines???
perspective6.jpg
and... should I be trying to use two point perspective, and if so... do I have my vanishing points in a reasonable location, or would it look better spread out even further?

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