Critic's CornerSwamp - Spring Knees

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St3v3M
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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby St3v3M » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:53 am

minniev wrote:Thank you for taking the time to give me this detailed feedback and showing some options. The crops do simplify things, and simplification is always a challenge for me. I don't think it's out of focus, the knee peaks are plenty sharp and that's usually the telling point with these shots. Like many of the swamp images, it's somewhat disorienting because of the layers of overlapping things and their reflections. The challenge, as always, is to find a way to bring some kind of order to the disorientation. With this one I couldn't quite do it. But I'll be back!

I think my eyes are failing but like you, I'll be back! S-
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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby minniev » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:54 am

Charles Haacker wrote:
minniev wrote:Thank you Chuck, for this detailed response. The mosquitos are no big and aggressive that they hurt when they hit you - even before they bite! At dawn, when this was shot, they are especially hungry and eager for breakfast. But dawn is the best light here, as there's a sizeable cliff on the west side that cuts off afternoon light before it gets soft. On the east side, there's forest but there's a way for light to sneak in through the trees.

Though the swamp is a small one, it offers me infinite opportunities for detail. Where it fights back is the larger views. I did get the nearest knee too near the edge, I know - failed to give myself enough spare space to allow for vertical correction in post (I have to shoot slightly downwards because I'm shooting off a bridge)

Good point about DOF.

I finally got smart and looked up cypress knees. I had no idea they are the spiky thingies. I thought we were talking about the cropped-thru trunk at left midground. I did not know the bent part is out of sight below the waterline. In any case I still don't think that knee is too near the bottom edge. Every picture, painting, or photograph simply must have a delimiting frame, and in the case of landscape/swampscape, something almost inevitably gets cropped. It bothers me not one whit. (By the way, thanks to that delimiting frame, any observer who did not know that the swamp is small would have no idea from this picture that it doesn't cover square miles.)


Thank you Chuck for returning to this. That's an interesting concept that I hadn't thought of - the delimiting frame. (Which means, I think, that everything has to end somewhere, since we can't get the whole world in the frame. I try, as everyone knows).
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby minniev » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:59 am

Ceropegia wrote:I think the atmosphere is great! I actually like the DOF. To me it is the best part of the image. It takes me deeper into the swamp where I would not venture otherwise. Cyprus knees have always captivated me. I would love to see them more clearly, although it is obviously not your fault because the reflections in the foreground from the trees in the back and the straight-on angle of the knee's own reflections have kept them from standing out. Perhaps, if possible, changing the vantage point to allow more light between the knees and taking the shot at a slightly different time of day that would cast the shadows at more of an angle, might emphasize the knees more. Cropping some off the bottom might tamp down some of the distraction of the tree reflections and serve to compensate for the downward angle from the bridge. I don't think in doing so, cutting off part of the the knee in the foreground would be a bad thing. I think it would contribute to the overall depth of the image. BTW, as Charles says woods are HAAAAARRrrrrd. I almost never manage to get a decent shot in the woods so don't often even try anymore.

Thank you Martha, for thinking through this one with me. I try so many things in this swamp, so I'm always grateful for new ideas. I have limitations in that the center of the swamp must be shot from a footbridge, but I can angle differently from different spots along the way, so it is do-able as you suggest. I LOVE the knees and am always trying to do something meaningful with them, but they are not as easy as they look like they ought to be, and the confounding mix of vertical trees and knees and their reflections creates a kind of circus fun-house effect where you don't really know where you are in an image.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby St3v3M » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:03 am

Charles Haacker wrote:... (By the way, thanks to that delimiting frame, any observer who did not know that the swamp is small would have no idea from this picture that it doesn't cover square miles.)

I couldn't find a definition of a delimiting frame so I broke it down to delimit frame and in the process came across this Where does photography lie?
- "We see within a delimited frame."
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby Charles Haacker » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:31 am

St3v3M wrote:
Charles Haacker wrote:... (By the way, thanks to that delimiting frame, any observer who did not know that the swamp is small would have no idea from this picture that it doesn't cover square miles.)

I couldn't find a definition of a delimiting frame so I broke it down to delimit frame and in the process came across this Where does photography lie?
- "We see within a delimited frame."

Thanks so much for finding that, Steve! In a purely photographic or painting sense, we seem to want to "see" beyond the delimited frame. That's why I remarked that the viewer of the swamp has no idea how big it is, but the mind tends to assume there is more beyond the frame, on all sides. I came across the principle in an article or a book many years ago. It was the reason that I deliberately cropped through the last runner in this sculpture:
ImageIn an Airport by Charles Haacker, on Flickr
There are actually only 10 figures, but slicing the last one in half implies that there are more behind him. At least, that's the principle. :|
Friends call me Chuck. :photo: This link takes you to my Flickr albums. Please click on any album to scroll through it.
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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby St3v3M » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:34 am

Charles Haacker wrote:Thanks so much for finding that, Steve! In a purely photographic or painting sense, we seem to want to "see" beyond the delimited frame. That's why I remarked that the viewer of the swamp has no idea how big it is, but the mind tends to assume there is more beyond the frame, on all sides. I came across the principle in an article or a book many years ago. It was the reason that I deliberately cropped through the last runner in this sculpture:
There are actually only 10 figures, but slicing the last one in half implies that there are more behind him. At least, that's the principle. :|

This makes sense now. I really appreciate this and love the example! S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby uuglypher » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:06 pm

Min,
As you well know the visual depth of your cypress swamp images pulls me in...visually, emotionally, spiritually, figuratively...and every other "ly-terminating-positively-adverbially-ly" way you can imagine. And especially, when you include such powerful foreground detail as the knees in this image I am irresistibly compelled to attempt a 3D conversion!

From my perspective the C.O.I. of this image is its inherent depth and the powerful traction into its depths that it imposes upon the viewer.

I hope you will accept it as a compliment when I tell you that 3D conversion was not able significantly to enhance the already great sense of depth you accomplished in your image!

I do love your swamp, and your images thereof!

Dave

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby ErichBrunner » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:06 am

minniev wrote:It is hard to make myself take shots other than the dam shots so I'm disciplining myself.

Took an early hike to my usual swamp, and tried different shots of the cypress knees and reflections. All feedback and critique, including edits, are appreciated. I was unsure in this one if the knee on the left may be too close to the edge, or if the overall confusion of reflection and knees compensates for it.
sw (1 of 1).jpg

I think this is a wonderful shot and a really nice perspective. I'll assume that the green tint is a natural occurrence in the swamp. I don't think the knee you mentioned it too close to the bottom. It is right there on the edge; but I think it is ok. What I like most about this shot is the interplay between the trees and the reflections. You also made a good choice with the perspective. more of the water and less of the above water makes this image intriguing. Well done.
Erich

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby minniev » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:10 am

uuglypher wrote:Min,
As you well know the visual depth of your cypress swamp images pulls me in...visually, emotionally, spiritually, figuratively...and every other "ly-terminating-positively-adverbially-ly" way you can imagine. And especially, when you include such powerful foreground detail as the knees in this image I am irresistibly compelled to attempt a 3D conversion!

From my perspective the C.O.I. of this image is its inherent depth and the powerful traction into its depths that it imposes upon the viewer.

I hope you will accept it as a compliment when I tell you that 3D conversion was not able significantly to enhance the already great sense of depth you accomplished in your image!

I do love your swamp, and your images thereof!

Dave

Thanks Dave, I do think this one has some serious shortcomings, but it does have that weird depth I try to capture, that is caused by the trees, knees and reflections. It's like photographing mirrors.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Re: Swamp - Spring Knees

Postby minniev » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:16 am

ErichBrunner wrote:
minniev wrote:It is hard to make myself take shots other than the dam shots so I'm disciplining myself.

Took an early hike to my usual swamp, and tried different shots of the cypress knees and reflections. All feedback and critique, including edits, are appreciated. I was unsure in this one if the knee on the left may be too close to the edge, or if the overall confusion of reflection and knees compensates for it.
sw (1 of 1).jpg

I think this is a wonderful shot and a really nice perspective. I'll assume that the green tint is a natural occurrence in the swamp. I don't think the knee you mentioned it too close to the bottom. It is right there on the edge; but I think it is ok. What I like most about this shot is the interplay between the trees and the reflections. You also made a good choice with the perspective. more of the water and less of the above water makes this image intriguing. Well done.
Erich

Glad you like it Erich. The greens are pretty true to the time of year, they start off hot lime in spring but are darkening now and will look pretty normal in another couple of weeks. It's always an experiment in this or that to figure out how much water, how much trees, landscape or portrait, how to manage foreground since it's pretty messy in there.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones


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