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Image Processinglearning to see

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PietFrancke
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Re: learning to see

Post by PietFrancke » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:18 am

Piet's first box -- useful for producing that foghorn kind of sound
box1.jpg

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Post by Duck » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 am

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:18 am
Piet's first box...

I Love it. Except I think you cheated! (?)

The perspective is too mechanical, meaning the angles of the sides (except the upper rear right edge) are perfectly parallel. That tells me you used guides rather than your eye. Had you studied the box before making your first lines you would have noticed that there are vanishing points along the edges of the planes. I have a feeling you just said to yourself, "just a box... simple enough" and created the standard cube layout of perpendicular lines. Shame on you. :spank:

You're supposed to be drawing from life. Actually "seeing" the box for what it is and not just making a representation of it. That's the whole exercise. Because the angles are parallel, the box doesn't "sit" realistically. The mass of the box looks 'off'. The front top corner looks like its collapsing down. unfortunately the rear edge that's out of whack throws the perspective off even more. I think that off angle likely threw the perspective of the oval box opening at top off as well. It's not positioned correctly on the top plane of the box, looking canted rather than centered. The tissue itself... well, had this been my class I would not have had it sticking out. It's just an unneeded distraction and too complex an object to tackle right now. Crumpled paper is not the easiest to draw. There are so many planes to consider.

If I am wrong in my assumption, i apologize. Let me know.

The overall brushwork on the shading and the use of the values for this box is a lot more loose and relaxed in comparison to your Conan attempt. This tells me you were a lot more relaxed with this exercise as well, compared to your Conan work. Try to find that comfort and maintain it as you refine your painting. It's not easy at first but I think you'll pick it up quickly.

The good thing now is that you can actually use the photo editing tools and techniques you are familiar with to tweak that tissue box into shape (pun intended :) ). A little liquify to correct perspective, some dodging and burning for separation and you're good.
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PietFrancke
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Post by PietFrancke » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:51 pm

Duck wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 am
PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:18 am
Piet's first box...

I Love it. Except I think you cheated! (?)

The perspective is too mechanical, meaning the angles of the sides (except the upper rear right edge) are perfectly parallel. That tells me you used guides rather than your eye. Had you studied the box before making your first lines you would have noticed that there are vanishing points along the edges of the planes. I have a feeling you just said to yourself, "just a box... simple enough" and created the standard cube layout of perpendicular lines. Shame on you. :spank:

You're supposed to be drawing from life. Actually "seeing" the box for what it is and not just making a representation of it. That's the whole exercise. Because the angles are parallel, the box doesn't "sit" realistically. The mass of the box looks 'off'. The front top corner looks like its collapsing down. unfortunately the rear edge that's out of whack throws the perspective off even more. I think that off angle likely threw the perspective of the oval box opening at top off as well. It's not positioned correctly on the top plane of the box, looking canted rather than centered. The tissue itself... well, had this been my class I would not have had it sticking out. It's just an unneeded distraction and too complex an object to tackle right now. Crumpled paper is not the easiest to draw. There are so many planes to consider.

If I am wrong in my assumption, i apologize. Let me know.

The overall brushwork on the shading and the use of the values for this box is a lot more loose and relaxed in comparison to your Conan attempt. This tells me you were a lot more relaxed with this exercise as well, compared to your Conan work. Try to find that comfort and maintain it as you refine your painting. It's not easy at first but I think you'll pick it up quickly.

The good thing now is that you can actually use the photo editing tools and techniques you are familiar with to tweak that tissue box into shape (pun intended :) ). A little liquify to correct perspective, some dodging and burning for separation and you're good.

Liquify is wonderful - I can't imagine doing this in the physical world. It is a game changer! I fixed the oval and added perspective to make the box LOOM.

But.. about seeing.. when I drew the box, the lines seemed parallel (and believe it or not, I actually got them to be close to parallel without grids of any type). I can't see it in perspective no matter how hard I try. I do not know if I am right or not.

I have both eyes open, and thinking about it, the box is not much wider than my eyes are apart. My reading glasses will cover the length of the box without problem. If I turn the box so that I see the front only, the left eye sees a straight edge on the left and the right eye sees a straight edge on the right.. I am just not seeing the perspective with both eyes open. BUT... If I use one eye only - then suddenly I see the perspective!!!! Weird..


Anyway, here is the box after liquify - but the perspective I added, I really am not seeing for some reason, or at least not this extreme...
box2.jpg

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Post by Duck » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:06 pm

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:51 pm
[...] about seeing.. when I drew the box, the lines seemed parallel (and believe it or not, I actually got them to be close to parallel without grids of any type). I can't see it in perspective no matter how hard I try. I do not know if I am right or not.

I have both eyes open, and thinking about it, the box is not much wider than my eyes are apart. My reading glasses will cover the length of the box without problem. If I turn the box so that I see the front only, the left eye sees a straight edge on the left and the right eye sees a straight edge on the right.. I am just not seeing the perspective with both eyes open. BUT... If I use one eye only - then suddenly I see the perspective!!!! Weird..

I apologize then, for my assumption. I do understand what you mean by "not seeing the perspective when both eyes are open." The reason for this is our binocular vision. Two eyes open takes in two slightly different 2D images and our brain does some magical computation and melds them into a single image. That introduces a parallax distortion. If you ever notice an artist working from a live subject they'll close one eye and hold their pencil up to eye level at almost an arm's reach. What they're doing is flattening the image in to a single 2D picture (one eye) and using the length of the pencil as a measuring guide to determine angles and proportions within the space to transfer to their drawing surface. The tip of the thumb is adjusted along the length of the pencil for measure.

While the size of the box does diminish the point perspectives, when it's transferred to paper the lack of that (even minor) perspective gets amplified. Just like in photography, there are times that you need to 'cheat it a little' in order to make it 'look' right. Take for example the trick of bringing the plane of the face towards the camera to define the jawline.

Anyhow, the point I was looking to emphasize is really looking at what you are trying to draw in a different manner than we normally look at our environment. Angles and proportions, mass shapes, tonal blocks, contrasts... all those play together to create a painting (or photo). When I draw I tend to get into a zone and the world around me tends to disappear for a while. I know this is a photography forum but I'm really enjoying this post. :yay:
"If you didn't learn something new today, you wasted a day."
Image ImageImageImageImage

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Post by PietFrancke » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm

Duck wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:06 pm
PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:51 pm
[...] about seeing.. when I drew the box, the lines seemed parallel (and believe it or not, I actually got them to be close to parallel without grids of any type). I can't see it in perspective no matter how hard I try. I do not know if I am right or not.

I have both eyes open, and thinking about it, the box is not much wider than my eyes are apart. My reading glasses will cover the length of the box without problem. If I turn the box so that I see the front only, the left eye sees a straight edge on the left and the right eye sees a straight edge on the right.. I am just not seeing the perspective with both eyes open. BUT... If I use one eye only - then suddenly I see the perspective!!!! Weird..

I apologize then, for my assumption. I do understand what you mean by "not seeing the perspective when both eyes are open." The reason for this is our binocular vision. Two eyes open takes in two slightly different 2D images and our brain does some magical computation and melds them into a single image. That introduces a parallax distortion. If you ever notice an artist working from a live subject they'll close one eye and hold their pencil up to eye level at almost an arm's reach. What they're doing is flattening the image in to a single 2D picture (one eye) and using the length of the pencil as a measuring guide to determine angles and proportions within the space to transfer to their drawing surface. The tip of the thumb is adjusted along the length of the pencil for measure.

While the size of the box does diminish the point perspectives, when it's transferred to paper the lack of that (even minor) perspective gets amplified. Just like in photography, there are times that you need to 'cheat it a little' in order to make it 'look' right. Take for example the trick of bringing the plane of the face towards the camera to define the jawline.

Anyhow, the point I was looking to emphasize is really looking at what you are trying to draw in a different manner than we normally look at our environment. Angles and proportions, mass shapes, tonal blocks, contrasts... all those play together to create a painting (or photo). When I draw I tend to get into a zone and the world around me tends to disappear for a while. I know this is a photography forum but I'm really enjoying this post. :yay:
Good gosh Duck - please don't appologize, believe me, I didn't cheat - BUT, I am not above Cheating if I think it can help me out. Any spanking I get is well deserved in general if not in specific. I think the concept is named Karma!! LOL.

-------------------------------------- interlude
About painting and photography ... I sometimes feel a little bad/awkward heading in this direction (always talking about painting), but truly I think customs and common usage of language just haven't caught up to us yet. Whether by painting or by photography, the goal is often the same. To Create an Image that makes us feel alive (whether by creating or by viewing). To Create an image that allows us to realize how Awesome the world that we live in is. (Awesome does not necessarily mean good)

About us puny human beings ... When we find the Zone, we find our purpose, we find meaning, we Become Ourselves. And I think it is wonderful that there are so many different things that can put us there! Painting, sketching, photography, music, sports, numerous crafts, the list is endless, but I believe that finding and doing those things are How we fulfill our Purpose.
------------------------------------------
Now - interlude over - back to topic. You say "really looking at what you are trying to draw in a different manner".. What do you mean by this deep looking, doing an analysis? Going through a checklist? Answer further: Angles and proportions, mass shapes, tonal blocks, contrasts. (identifying the pieces that we can lift from reality and actually place on the paper). No mumbo jumbo about Drama, or Mood or some other unidentifiable thing. Rather Seeing the things that capturable and explicable.

"bringing the plane of the face towards the camera to define the jawline" -- I never knew this, or at least never thought about it. I am guessing this makes the jaw Sharper, more Distinct? Or to take that further, any feature that you want to emphasize, figure out a way to make that area stand out more. By lighting, by angle, by contrast, by whatever it takes!

about parallax distortion... if that is what you get with binocular vision, then shouldn't we be striving to add that type of distortion to our images? Wouldn't such a distortion "look more real"? Wouldn't that be something in a painting that might make it look different than a one-eyed photograph? (the things I do to avoid being called one-eyed Pieter)

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Post by minniev » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:44 pm

Piet, your tissue box is wonderful- shape, shading, perspective. Both of them are. That you have come this far in such a short while is amazing. I don't know how anyone could learn to do this without resorting to the underlying shapes that define the objects we try to sketch or paint. But I continue to follow this thread, which you could charge admission to, in order to learn what I do not yet know.

My cousin is a trained traditional artist working mostly in charcoals, ink, and watercolors. She has patiently showed me a sequence of her work, and her mothers (also a professionally trained artist), to illustrate the repetitive defects they both battled in terms of perspective, as well as paintings by famous artists who suffered the same, sometimes overcoming them and sometimes embracing them to the point of definition.


And thank you for this: "Whether by painting or by photography, the goal is often the same. To Create an Image that makes us feel alive (whether by creating or by viewing). To Create an image that allows us to realize how Awesome the world that we live in is. (Awesome does not necessarily mean good)"
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Post by Duck » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:06 am

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm
[...] To Create an image that allows us to realize how Awesome the world that we live in is. (Awesome does not necessarily mean good)
So true. For me, awesome in art is anything that moves me emotionally in one form or another. I'll cry at a tearjerker of a movie, get pissed at a photojournalist's image of some injustice, laugh at a stand up comic or contemplate some deeper meaning in music. Those moments are awesome.

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm
When we find the Zone, we find our purpose, we find meaning, we Become Ourselves. And I think it is wonderful that there are so many different things that can put us there! Painting, sketching, photography, music, sports, numerous crafts, the list is endless, but I believe that finding and doing those things are How we fulfill our Purpose.
...or carpentry. :D

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm
Now - interlude over - back to topic. You say "really looking at what you are trying to draw in a different manner".. What do you mean by this deep looking, doing an analysis? Going through a checklist? Answer further: Angles and proportions, mass shapes, tonal blocks, contrasts. (identifying the pieces that we can lift from reality and actually place on the paper). No mumbo jumbo about Drama, or Mood or some other unidentifiable thing. Rather Seeing the things that capturable and explicable.

"bringing the plane of the face towards the camera to define the jawline" -- I never knew this, or at least never thought about it. I am guessing this makes the jaw Sharper, more Distinct? Or to take that further, any feature that you want to emphasize, figure out a way to make that area stand out more. By lighting, by angle, by contrast, by whatever it takes!
This is going to take some explaining and will take me some time to write up. I'll answer this in a separate post in this thread later.

PietFrancke wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:03 pm
about parallax distortion... if that is what you get with binocular vision, then shouldn't we be striving to add that type of distortion to our images? Wouldn't such a distortion "look more real"? Wouldn't that be something in a painting that might make it look different than a one-eyed photograph? (the things I do to avoid being called one-eyed Pieter)
The effect of having two eyes working in conjunction, or stereopsis, is something that Dave (uuglypher) has been playing with for converting 2D images into 3D viewing. See his post Pulling depth out of 2D Graphics: for more info.
"If you didn't learn something new today, you wasted a day."
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Post by PietFrancke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:39 am

thank you Minnie and Duck, I always savor your comments and they get contemplation and go into my stew pit of mental agony and growth. About Ugly Parallax - Yes, but he requires two images brought back together and seen with two eyes - re-tricking the brain into proper performance.

My practice continues - I went back to Conan and tried to be more loose. I added some background to give him better space to stand in. I dulled his over-worked arm. I worked my way down the figure doing "cut 1" drawing - kind of attempting Duck's idea of rouging it out and then doing a revisit. I think I am getting a better feeling of form doing this. Soon we will be back to the part that Frank will find an interest in.

I feel like I am making progress - Duck, I am looking forward to more clues about how to see - they are invaluable. Minnie, thank you too for sharing your friends frustration and how, because of that struggle, how our embraced weaknesses might in turn become our strengths.
ls5.jpg

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Post by Psjunkie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:28 am

It seems you are building intrigue Pieter..........

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Post by PietFrancke » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:15 am

Psjunkie wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:28 am
It seems you are building intrigue Pieter..........
hit a bad spot in it... not sure how to proceed... might leave it alone and watch tuts for a while and see if I can figure a way to recover the mess of it... I am starting to see a little better (maybe), but my execution is sad.
sepia.jpg

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