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Photography DiscussionPrinter profiling

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Onslow
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Printer profiling

Post by Onslow » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 am

I understand peoples eyes may glaze over so feel free to skip...
After deciding to sell the 24" printer, I am getting re-invigorated again for some photography.
1st thing today was to create a print profile for Ilford Smooth Pearl for my Epson 3880. So, I printed the targets yesterday, scanned and measured them today and had a look in Color Think Pro to compare my particular machines output to the standard Ilford profile.
The 1st image shows the scanning of the test prints, the 2nd shows the numeric gamut volume. The standard ilford has a slightly larger colour volume than my particular printer with that paper.
The 3rd and 4th images show my custom profile as a 50%opacity volume with the standard Ilford volume superimposed on it. There are some areas my profile does better and some slightly worse. Not much in it.
The 4th image though also has AdobeRGB superimposed as a red wireframe only. What is intersting is that my printer is able to print quite a bit outside of AdobeRGB in yellows and greens at different luminosities. Essentially what this means is that the printer is capable with this profile and paper combination of printing quite a bit outside of AdobeRGB.
What does this mean in practice? It means that yellows and greens are able to be printed more saturated than say sRGB (Jpgs) or AdobeRGB. This is the reason I use ProPhotoRGB as my colorspace of choice.
Paper Profiling.jpg
The scanning of the profile targets has just been completed. I use an X-Rite i1Pro 2 for this.
Colorthink Pro Comparisons.jpg
A Gamut Volume comparison of my particular machines and the standard Ilford profile. My machine is capable of slightly less than the generic Ilford profile.
Wide.jpg
There are three profiles in this image.
1) The red wireframe is AdobeRGB color volume.
2) The 50% opaque color volume is my particular printers profiles.
3) The other wireframe that changes color with the particular color of the profile os the generic Ilford profile.
In this view it is easy to see that both profiles are wider than the AdobeRGB profile by quite some degree..
Wider.jpg
There are three profiles in this image.
1) The red wireframe is AdobeRGB color volume.
2) The 50% opaque color volume is my particular printers profiles.
3) The other wireframe that changes color with the particular color of the profile os the generic Ilford profile.
In this view it is easy to see that both profiles are wider than the AdobeRGB profile. by quite some degree.. It is also noticeable that AdobeRGB is quite a bit larger in volume in some areas than the 2 other profiles.
Hope I didn't cure peoples insomnia... :)

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minniev
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Post by minniev » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:43 pm

Firstly, I wanta shout out a big "welcome home" to you. I've noticed your past posts, both images and feedback, and had hoped you would return.

Secondly, I'm so far behind you in the area of printer color management that anything I say about it may be a joke to you. I need to know more, as I discovered when I outsourced prints for my first gallery exhibit last fall and the colors were not what I wanted or expected, even though I used the color space and profiles the printer provided and requested. I ended up having to back all the way down to sRGB color space simply to get predictable color, even though I lost some subtleties. I've always been able to print my own satisfactorily with commercial paper/printer profiles but needing larger prints sent me on an unfamiliar journey. I was fortunate to have friends who could coach me out of a rough spot. (It was actually a professional photographer from Australia and his printer in Fiji who walked me through various solutions till we found one that would work way down here in the backwoods of Mississippi, teaching me once again the value of forums).

Many of us lack the knowledge, skills and equipment to get the results we want. I'm hoping some of our more advanced folk will chime in on your topic more meaningfully than I can.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Post by Onslow » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:49 pm

minniev wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:43 pm
Firstly, I wanta shout out a big "welcome home" to you. I've noticed your past posts, both images and feedback, and had hoped you would return.

Secondly, I'm so far behind you in the area of printer color management that anything I say about it may be a joke to you.

Many of us lack the knowledge, skills and equipment to get the results we want. I'm hoping some of our more advanced folk will chime in on your topic more meaningfully than I can.
G'day M8, I'm in Adealide, South Australia.. :) Thanks for the welcome back... I left as I just felt deluged with spammers in 2015/16 coupled with issues in my personal life...

On your 2nd point, I never poke fun at someones different level of knowledge and experience. All questions are welcome as that is the way that I myself learnt why I know. If I don't know, I know where to go to find things out.

A friend of mine just held an exhibition in Adelaide last month. He too had numerous issues with print quality etc through his 3880. When I sold him my 7800, I included the paper profiles I built for it as well as a few rolls of paper. I installed it for him and I asked to see how he normally printed. He used photoshop and just before printing added a layer set to screen mode which brightened the image as the prints were always too dark.
I showed him lightrooms print module and setup a preset for the one of his images, printed it and the image came out correctly. It's just a matter of knowing what to do. He was amazed at the simplicity of it once it's setup correctly.

Anytime you have some questions, feel free to ask. If I can help, I will...

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Post by minniev » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:00 am

Onslow wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:49 pm
minniev wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:43 pm
Firstly, I wanta shout out a big "welcome home" to you. I've noticed your past posts, both images and feedback, and had hoped you would return.

Secondly, I'm so far behind you in the area of printer color management that anything I say about it may be a joke to you.

Many of us lack the knowledge, skills and equipment to get the results we want. I'm hoping some of our more advanced folk will chime in on your topic more meaningfully than I can.
G'day M8, I'm in Adealide, South Australia.. :) Thanks for the welcome back... I left as I just felt deluged with spammers in 2015/16 coupled with issues in my personal life...

On your 2nd point, I never poke fun at someones different level of knowledge and experience. All questions are welcome as that is the way that I myself learnt why I know. If I don't know, I know where to go to find things out.

A friend of mine just held an exhibition in Adelaide last month. He too had numerous issues with print quality etc through his 3880. When I sold him my 7800, I included the paper profiles I built for it as well as a few rolls of paper. I installed it for him and I asked to see how he normally printed. He used photoshop and just before printing added a layer set to screen mode which brightened the image as the prints were always too dark.
I showed him lightrooms print module and setup a preset for the one of his images, printed it and the image came out correctly. It's just a matter of knowing what to do. He was amazed at the simplicity of it once it's setup correctly.

Anytime you have some questions, feel free to ask. If I can help, I will...
That is very interesting. I’d like to know more about what you’re doing that that might be do-able for someone who doesn’t have printer calibration devices. My Epson r3000 died last month, and I have replaced it with an Epson P400, a step down in some ways. I don’t have the P400 figured out yet. It does great with black and white prints, but the color prints are darker than the same files with the r3000. I have to find a solution but it seems most of such things are in exact, like guessing how much to brighten an image since it won’t come out looking like what I see onscreen.

With the images I outsourced, some came back with the yellows way too greenish. When I complained, the printer said he’d redo them at his expense and “throw a little more red in there” which didn’t inspire my confidence. The printing nearly drove me crazy.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

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Post by St3v3M » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:33 am

Onslow wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 am
I understand peoples eyes may glaze over so feel free to skip...
...
Hope I didn't cure peoples insomnia... :)
I like you and am excited to have you join us. Welcome Home!

If I may ask, how far are most printers off, and is it important to create a profile for each? S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

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Post by Onslow » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:57 am

minniev wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:00 am

That is very interesting. I’d like to know more about what you’re doing that that might be do-able for someone who doesn’t have printer calibration devices. My Epson r3000 died last month, and I have replaced it with an Epson P400, a step down in some ways. I don’t have the P400 figured out yet. It does great with black and white prints, but the color prints are darker than the same files with the r3000. I have to find a solution but it seems most of such things are in exact, like guessing how much to brighten an image since it won’t come out looking like what I see onscreen.

With the images I outsourced, some came back with the yellows way too greenish. When I complained, the printer said he’d redo them at his expense and “throw a little more red in there” which didn’t inspire my confidence. The printing nearly drove me crazy.
For your color prints, then your monitor is set too bright. Turn down the brightness slowly, let your eyes adapt for a day or so, print and redo IF the print is still too dark. What happens on a monitor that is too bright is that you instinctively turn down the exposure as it is too bright. However, that then means the file is too dark for prints which don't have a brightness control.

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Post by Onslow » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:01 am

St3v3M wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:33 am

I like you and am excited to have you join us. Welcome Home!

If I may ask, how far are most printers off, and is it important to create a profile for each? S-
Cheers for that. :) In my experience, most photo printers are reasonably close when used with the manufacturers papers and print settings. However, I don't use them I use papers by Ilford, Canson, Hahnemuhle and Museo. All of these papers have different settings. They do all offer profiles for the particular paper/printer combination and they work fine IF you set the profile up correctly in the driver and the print program. I myself use Lightroom as it saves heaps of time over Photoshops awful print functionality. I also use soft proofing in LR which which works reasonably well..

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Post by St3v3M » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:03 am

Onslow wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:01 am
Cheers for that. :) In my experience, most photo printers are reasonably close when used with the manufacturers papers and print settings. However, I don't use them I use papers by Ilford, Canson, Hahnemuhle and Museo. All of these papers have different settings. They do all offer profiles for the particular paper/printer combination and they work fine IF you set the profile up correctly in the driver and the print program. I myself use Lightroom as it saves heaps of time over Photoshops awful print functionality. I also use soft proofing in LR which which works reasonably well..
This is good to know, thank you! S-
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Post by pop511 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 am

Onslow;
Nice to see you back. I did post my experiences with my new printer, the Epson surecolor P800 and like you I now print and work in the ProPhoto RGB 16bit settings.
I found that when changing from relative to perceptual the colours on the screen swam around. It became a case of, which is more accurate.
I now stay in Absolute print mode and stunned by the quality. Have you tried it?
As before "Nice to see you back, you Aussie B&^%t%rd.
Have fun;
ed davis

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Post by Onslow » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:03 am

pop511 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 am
Onslow;
Nice to see you back. I did post my experiences with my new printer, the Epson surecolor P800 and like you I now print and work in the ProPhoto RGB 16bit settings.
I found that when changing from relative to perceptual the colours on the screen swam around. It became a case of, which is more accurate.
I now stay in Absolute print mode and stunned by the quality. Have you tried it?
As before "Nice to see you back, you Aussie B&^%t%rd.
Have fun;
G'day Ed, Using the rendering intents is something I do when soft proofing to see which one will best suit the image. LR only has Relative or Perceptual rendering intents. I don't use Absolute. I use colorthink pro to shown me an indication of how far out of a papers gamut the image is and I will decide it based on that. When softproofing in LR, I will adjust the processing of the softproof to match the master image as best I can and then print that once it's adjusted....
Nice to be back Ed. :) The last coupla years have seen me worn down with online forum battles so I don't post as much as I used to and avoid the flame wars that I see online over trivial issues....

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