"One day you are a signature, next day you are an autograph." —Billy Wilder

Photography DiscussionETTR

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

ETTR

Post by St3v3M » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:59 am

I've been working at taking better images and have been Exposing To The Right (ETTR). RAW files are amazing!
- I'm amazed that what looks unusable on the LCD can be recovered in post processing by pulling Exposure back.

I compose the image, take the shot, review the histogram,* adjust Exposure Compensation and repeat.
I use Live Mode on a tripod with the histogram on so I can make changes before I take the final image.
*pushing the histogram as far right as I can without actually touching the edge (ETTalmostR)

I'm still working on it and learning the limits of my camera but wonder what you all think. S-
Attachments
IMG_0133-1.jpg
EC+1
IMG_0133-1.jpg (65.89 KiB) Viewed 395 times
IMG_0133-2.jpg
Post Processed
IMG_0133-2.jpg (59.04 KiB) Viewed 395 times
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

User avatar
Psjunkie
Mentoris Primus
Mentoris Primus
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:20 am
Social Media Opt-In: No
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by Psjunkie » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:44 am

Bob could fill you in on that Steve.....you are on the right track

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by St3v3M » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:36 pm

Psjunkie wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:44 am
Bob could fill you in on that Steve.....you are on the right track
Appreciate! S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

User avatar
minniev
Mentoris Magister
Mentoris Magister
Posts: 3911
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:55 am
Location: Mississippi
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by minniev » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:21 pm

St3v3M wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:59 am
I've been working at taking better images and have been Exposing To The Right (ETTR). RAW files are amazing!
- I'm amazed that what looks unusable on the LCD can be recovered in post processing by pulling Exposure back.

I compose the image, take the shot, review the histogram,* adjust Exposure Compensation and repeat.
I use Live Mode on a tripod with the histogram on so I can make changes before I take the final image.
*pushing the histogram as far right as I can without actually touching the edge (ETTalmostR)

I'm still working on it and learning the limits of my camera but wonder what you all think. S-
You did well with this one. Every camera is different in that extra range, so experimentation is your friend here. Even my two Olympus cameras (Em5 and EM1) are different in how they handle those extra highlights.

That edited image is wonderfully rich, and even though the original looks like some areas might be blown they are not. What I learned early on was that this process is a massive help in scenes with very broad DR. In some cases, such as shooting a dark room with bright sunshiny outdoors showing through the windows, the resulting file may be pretty dark instead of light like this one. But it't the same principle in effect.

Bob and Dave Graham know more about this subject than the rest of us here, I think.
"God gave me photography so that I could pray with my eyes" - Dewitt Jones

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by St3v3M » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:11 pm

minniev wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:21 pm
You did well with this one. Every camera is different in that extra range, so experimentation is your friend here. Even my two Olympus cameras (Em5 and EM1) are different in how they handle those extra highlights.

That edited image is wonderfully rich, and even though the original looks like some areas might be blown they are not. What I learned early on was that this process is a massive help in scenes with very broad DR. In some cases, such as shooting a dark room with bright sunshiny outdoors showing through the windows, the resulting file may be pretty dark instead of light like this one. But it't the same principle in effect.

Bob and Dave Graham know more about this subject than the rest of us here, I think.
I'm pushing the image until I see the blinkies (blown areas) but wonder if I can push it a little more. Sometimes the images look almost white on the lcd but so far I can recover them all. It's almost against intuition, but I understand it so I'll continue on.

Thanks so much for the encouragement, I'll push on! S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

User avatar
Matt Quinn
Mentoris Maximus
Mentoris Maximus
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:12 pm
Location: MD in winter: Cape Cod in summer
Social Media Opt-In: No
Editing option: No, please do not edit my images
Contact:

Post by Matt Quinn » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:35 am

Steve, I have read about ettr but haven't grasped how to do it. I do it in pp. Now that you have started the conversation, let me ask, how do you push the histogram to the right in the camera? Increasing exposure compensation? Changing iso? (I have tried the step but get too much grain.) Slowing the shutter? I don't use live view; is it essential in order to push to the right? Thanks. Matt
Matt Quinn

"...approach the light as opposed to the subject." Stan Godwin

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by St3v3M » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:33 am

Matt Quinn wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:35 am
Steve, I have read about ettr but haven't grasped how to do it. I do it in pp. Now that you have started the conversation, let me ask, how do you push the histogram to the right in the camera? Increasing exposure compensation? Changing iso? (I have tried the step but get too much grain.) Slowing the shutter? I don't use live view; is it essential in order to push to the right? Thanks. Matt
Hey Matt, it's good of you to ask.
I've been focused on landscape photography lately so I've set the mode to Aperture, ISO 100, and f/11. I might change these as needed but they are my starting point and seem to work for most shots. I've also been trying more and more to shoot on a tripod with a ten-second timer, but some of my recent shots were taken in bright light so I was able to handhold with a fast shutter speed.

If I'm on the tripod I'll use Live Mode and adjust the histogram before I take the shot, otherwise compose through the viewfinder, take the shot and review it on the LCD screen. I'm looking at the shot of course, is it composed well, is it sharp, but mostly I'm looking at the histogram to see if I'm pushed it to either edge. The Metering Mode on your camera will change how it reacts so you may find there are times an image is dark and with a change its light, either way, you can adjust this with Exposure Compensation.

In practical terms, I approach the scene, level the tripod, attach the camera, adjust the composition, turn on Live Mode, verify the focus point, recheck the composition, and check the histogram. Assuming the histogram is left, more black, I'll adjust it to the right, more white. What I'm looking for is to push it as far right as I can without touching the edge.

The first image below shows the histograms from a recent shoot, EC+1. The first is a shot that might be considered well exposed, the second from the same shot with the EC+2, and the third is where I ended up after a quick edit. The second image is from the second histogram, can this even be usable? And the third image is where I ended up after the edit. I pulled Exposure back -2 in Lightroom and edited from there.

I'm sure the second shot would have processed well, but the main advantage of ETTR seems to be in recovering more of the blacks than is possible without it. You're basically pushing the camera to capture as much data as it can, overriding the meter.

I'll probably crop the image creating more of what I saw but hope this helps! S-
Attachments
Histograms.JPG
Histograms.JPG (20.29 KiB) Viewed 379 times
IMG_9938-1.jpg
IMG_9938-1.jpg (144.85 KiB) Viewed 379 times
IMG_9938-2.jpg
IMG_9938-2.jpg (178.29 KiB) Viewed 379 times
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

User avatar
Charles Haacker
Mentoris Primus
Mentoris Primus
Posts: 1841
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:20 pm
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Social Media Opt-In: No
Editing option: No, please do not edit my images
Contact:

Post by Charles Haacker » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:22 pm

St3v3M wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:11 pm
I'm pushing the image until I see the blinkies (blown areas) but wonder if I can push it a little more. Sometimes the images look almost white on the lcd but so far I can recover them all. It's almost against intuition, but I understand it so I'll continue on.

Thanks so much for the encouragement, I'll push on! S-
Matt Quinn wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:35 am
Steve, I have read about ettr but haven't grasped how to do it. I do it in pp. Now that you have started the conversation, let me ask, how do you push the histogram to the right in the camera? Increasing exposure compensation? Changing iso? (I have tried the step but get too much grain.) Slowing the shutter? I don't use live view; is it essential in order to push to the right? Thanks. Matt
My incomplete understanding of the process is that it's mainly intended to insure that there will be recoverable detail in the shadows, plus it also helps minimize overall noise. To use it you must shoot raw. Attempting to expose jpegs to the right will just block the highlights. Min is absolutely correct that you have to test your individual camera(s) because different sensors have a greater or lesser tolerance for what sometimes amounts to deliberate overexposure. Indeed, the image may look pretty blown on the screen but when you get them into processing it's nothing short of amazing how much you can drag them back and not have blocked highlights, IF you haven't gone too far for that specific sensor.

I think I have read that using the blinkies or zebra stripes is a good way to gauge what you are doing, but I also think I have read that it can all be done with the histogram just by crowding the right edge of the histogram box, so Matt, no, you don't have to use live view, but it probably helps. I use a mirrorless which is in live view all the time. You can accomplish the needed slight overexposure any number of ways: going full manual; exposure compensation; or changing ISO. I think exposure compensation is the easiest. The amount of overexposure will vary with the conditions and the sensor. If you have the luxury of bracketing that's great. A good bracket would also allow for HDR, but I tend to think HDR is going out of favor as the dynamic range of modern sensors is so broad.
Friends call me Chuck. :photo: This link takes you to my Flickr albums. Please click on any album to scroll through it.
(I prefer to present pictures in albums because I can put them in specific order.)

All the great photographers use cameras! No, really. :|

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by St3v3M » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:58 pm

Charles Haacker wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:22 pm
My incomplete understanding of the process is that it's mainly intended to insure that there will be recoverable detail in the shadows, plus it also helps minimize overall noise. To use it you must shoot raw. Attempting to expose jpegs to the right will just block the highlights. Min is absolutely correct that you have to test your individual camera(s) because different sensors have a greater or lesser tolerance for what sometimes amounts to deliberate overexposure. Indeed, the image may look pretty blown on the screen but when you get them into processing it's nothing short of amazing how much you can drag them back and not have blocked highlights, IF you haven't gone too far for that specific sensor.

I think I have read that using the blinkies or zebra stripes is a good way to gauge what you are doing, but I also think I have read that it can all be done with the histogram just by crowding the right edge of the histogram box, so Matt, no, you don't have to use live view, but it probably helps. I use a mirrorless which is in live view all the time. You can accomplish the needed slight overexposure any number of ways: going full manual; exposure compensation; or changing ISO. I think exposure compensation is the easiest. The amount of overexposure will vary with the conditions and the sensor. If you have the luxury of bracketing that's great. A good bracket would also allow for HDR, but I tend to think HDR is going out of favor as the dynamic range of modern sensors is so broad.
From what I know you are correct, the point is to recover as much of the blacks as possible while not blowing out the highlights. And you're right again, the Blinkies help so I have them turned on, they are a quick How-Do-You-Do letting me know I'm over, but I rely on the Histogram more now as I'm getting used to looking at it. I still haven't figured out how much, if any, I can push it past, but in due time.

And for me, I can either use the viewfinder, Playback the image while looking at the histogram, and adjust, or use Live View with the histogram on and adjust from there. It's a no-brainer if I'm mounted on a tripod, but I'm sure all cameras are different. I'm trying to use the tripod more, but there are times when I'm on the move and there's good light so I can handhold. It's a choice.

I'm mostly shooting landscapes right now so I'm using Aperture, but you're correct again about doing the same thing in Manual. Exposure Compensation is easier for me, and as far as I've found so far they reach the same goal. Now that you've brought this up, I have a question I'll post immediately after this.

This has become a fascinating discussion and is helping me to learn as well especially to think about my shots more! S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

User avatar
St3v3M
Key Founding Member
Key Founding Member
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:02 am
Location: 35,000 feet
Social Media Opt-In: Yes
Editing option: Yes, feel free to edit my image
Contact:

Post by St3v3M » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:01 pm

So now I have a question -
- Is it better to move the Exposure Slider or the Black Slider to recover the blacks?
* And more importantly, will one produce less noise on the image than the other?

I'm going to see if I can test it and get right back to this. S-
"Take photographs, leave footprints, steal hearts"

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests